Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Boat handling, ideas, questions...
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Hans
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Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

I still struggle with too much weatherhelm when sailing a one mast 38ft or 45ft. Weatherhelm is understandable in a one mast design with a large mainsail an relatively small jib.
Beating to windward in 15-20 knot wind I seldomly have less than 15 degrees of rudder; loosing speed and causing a turbulent wake and extra load on the steeringsystem.
Not to mention loss of pleasure, sailing like this is like 'riding a reluctant horse': not as much fun as could be possible. Reefing the main, enough to give a nice weatherhelm, reduces the boatspeed so much, almost any other boat is overtaking me. No fun either. Curious to know whether other owners recognize this problem. How do you handle? Anyone find a brilliant solution?
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

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Michel
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Michel »

Hans,

I raced a Laser for some years and as you know the come with only a mainsail. Weather helm is severe if the trim is off. Some thoughts here that you perhaps already had yourself, but anyway;
- The first step before reefing is flattening the main. Perhaps there is more you can do to flatten yours.
eg:
- do you have a cunninghamhole (flattening reef?) If not, tightening the halyard has the same effect.
- also tighten the foot by tightening the outhaul. I know many sloop sailors never touch their outhauls.
- tighten the boom vang before the sail is filled by the wind.
- how about your batten tension? if they are too tight, they create more depth in the sail when the vang is tight; the round roach becomes a straight line and squeezes the battens against the mast. Reducing the batten tension flattens the sail.
- a last thought: you could use running backstays from the mast head to create some pre-bend in the mast top section, thus opening the leech in the top third of the mainsail.

If you already worked all this over, installing a smaller first reef is perhaps an option.

Michel
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

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GeoffSchultz
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by GeoffSchultz »

1 simple word: Reef

Personally I never do anything less than a double reef. A single reef always adds too much belly to the sail and is almost worse than no reef. With a double reef the boat is well balanced.

-- Geoff
BlueJacket
1997 Freedom 40/40
http://www.GeoffSchultz.org

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Hans
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Thanks Geoff and Michel,

The reefs in my main arer already deeper than standard. Reefing to have a balanced boat does work but cost a lot of speed which I hope to prevent losing. I have a cunningham lead to a winch on the 38ft. Can't apply otherwise enough tension by hand I find. Have the outhaul lead to a winch on the boom for same reason. The running backstays, which I have on the 45, stabilize the mast but do'nt help much in terms of diminishing weatherhelm. Did'nt try to lessen tension on the battens and will do so. The main on the 45ft is rather deep and almost impossible to flatten enough. I have a new squarehead mainsail made which is pretty flat. I'll sail the boat from St Lucia to Paul Dennis in Warren in May and will have ample opportunity to see whether this extra flattening helps enough. Otherwise I think of installing some kind of retractable bowsprit for a small flying jib, just to balance the rig. Any Freedom owner ever experimented in this direction? Drawback is the lot of extra hassle with winches and extra sheets. And missing this hassle at present is one of the things I like about the Freedom, so there's a problem.
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

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Michel
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Michel »

Hans, Freedom 44 Frog Kiss has a bowsprit with a small jib. The (previous) owner had a shortened F45 mast so he had the top attachment points for the F45 standard jib on his mast. See photos below.
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Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

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Hans
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Thanks Michel,

I will see how the new sails will work out. Can ask Paul Dennis to try an arrangement like on the pictures when needed.
Will let you know how it ends.
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

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Hans
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Recently I sailed the boat from St Lucia to Warren River, only while crossing the Gulf Stream we had winds 30+ knots. Very little in the rest of the trip ( 250 motorhours)
Tried the new sail, which is much flatter than the old one: Boat is heeling much less, picks up speed quicker, easier on the helm, and points higher without loosing too much speed.
When wind pipes up I reef early, reefs are quite deep, boats looses hardly any speed, sails easier with less heeling and stress on the rig.
I was afraid weather helm would be a lot because I made the main bigger and changed to a smaller jib ( 40% down), but with this
configuration she has still much less weather helm as she did before.
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Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

Mike Holibar
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Mike Holibar »

Hi all,
weather heln on Fyne Spirit is a problem at times. Reefing often reduces this and results in increased speed provided there is not too much sea running, and she points very well. But lack of power in a bigger head sea is a problem. Now I have this lovely power winch, tightening halyards, vangs etc is fairly easy but I don't have much luck flattening the sail. Both sails are loose footed due to the stack packs so tightening the vang has the efect of straightening the leech but doesn't do much for the depth. Should I try more weight on the outhaul, or is the loose foot the likely source of the problem. Your advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand

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Hans
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Mike,

The loose foot of a sail is never the cause of not being able to flatten the sail enough. Both my mainsails on the 38 ft and 45 ft are loose footed, on both boats
I need a winch to give enough power to the outhaul. Handpower for the outhaul is never enough but in the smallest Freedoms.
The way the yard delivered these boats with just a cleat on the boom for the outhaul was not intended for serious sailing.

Cause of not enough flattening the sail is mostly: a worn sail losing its shape and/or designed with a too deep draft in the first place.

Most sails I see on Freedoms ( or other single mast designs) are in my opinion cut and made with a too deep draft. I had discussions with some sailmakers about this and I disagree with their general opinion that sails for boats like this needs to be 'powerful' i.a.w. deep drafted. I find this opinion a bit outdated.
I had my new sails specifically made with a flat entry and relatively shallow draft. Performance is better, healing/ weatherhelm much less. Most noticable when going upwind in a choppy sea when conditions are not favourable.

To see whether your sails are capable of flattening enough; put outhaul on a winch and tighten. Look at the sail while doing so: is only the lower third portion of the sail flattening or does it so evenly along the whole length of the mast? If upper and middle portion are not flattening enough while lower third is: worn out or wrongly designed.

Regards, Hans
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

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GeoffSchultz
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Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by GeoffSchultz »

On my 40/40 I can certainly tighten the foot enough *IF* I am off the wind. I just let the main out so that it's luffying big time and tighten it down.

-- Geoff
BlueJacket
1997 Freedom 40/40
http://www.GeoffSchultz.org

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