HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Fresh/Waste Water Systems, Watermakers, HVAC, Refrigeration...

HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby midnightsailor » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:18 pm

I am planning to install a heating system to my F-33. I have read all the posts on here that deal with this that I could find. I have come to the conclusion that for me the best way to do this would be for a bulkead mounted diesel, in particular , the Dickensen Newport . I feel diesel best as the F-33 has a limited supply of propane (two-6lb) and since I stay aboard much of the winter here in Greenport,NY feel I would be constantly filling them, while I have much more supply of diesel. My chief concern/problem is locating the unit. I find I have two choices, either the port or starboard, forward salon bulkeads, at the foot of either settee. I am leaning toward the port side as it is a bit wider bulkhead. Also, I often use the starboard ,pullout settee as a berth. My concern is 1. height of the flue. Installation specifies at least 4 feet. From the top of the port (or starboard) settee to the overhead is just 5 feet. This means if I locate the stove just above the settee cushion I would have 40" from the top of the stove to the bulkhead (the stove is 19.75" high) Just 8 " under the 4 feet requirement. I wonder how much of a problem this would be? Would the deck fitting plus Cap give me the extra 8 inches? I amp planning also on re-upholstering settee so I figure I should cut down the length so that it ends just short of the stove and the tile under and behind stove.
I would appreciate any comments, suggestions or ideas regarding this,. Has anyone put this type of unit of a similar boat with similar constraints? I very much like what Michel has done on Alabama Queen, and would like to follow this as much as possible only I have no area for floor mount space so it has to be on the bulkhead.
I have considered propane because of the simple installation and the fact that its installation parameters easily can be accomodated, but the propane supply, and probably added cost of the propane make diesel more attractive. Also , wonder if even the largest Newport Propane ( at 7,000. to 9,700. btus) would be adequate heat for the F-33. Perhaps, an outside mounted 20lb propane tank just for the heater for winter use and removed when it warms up?
Help me please so Ican move on with this! :?
Rick
1982 Freedom 33 Cat Ketch, Hull # 53, Standard Booms, deep keel ,tall rig
An armed man is a citizen, An unarmed man is a subject. George Washington
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby CrazyRU » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:51 pm

Hi, Rick. Do you have centerboard model or fixed keel? On my freedom 28 CK I removed bottle locker at the front end of the centerboard trunk and I put pot type coal stove there. I run flue directly up. I survived two winters in water here in NY, and i'm getting tired of mess associated with hard fuel. I'm ready for diesel heat. Anyway, the place at the end of centerboard trunk is perfect. Stand alone, directly on a floor unit, either stove or diesel heater fit well there. Also it is convenient to the front cabin. I can reach the stove from v-birth without getting out of sleeping bag.
CR
s/v "NEMO" - Freedom 28 Cat Ketch centerboard
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby AlanK » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:03 pm

I have an F-33 with a bulkhead mounted Newport Propane unit (Starboard over the berth). Works very well. I don't live aboard. I've used it down to about freezing. Biggest issue is regulating and ventilation so I'm not too hot. However, Keeping the V-berth warm as well is difficult even using fans if its really cool.
I assume you are at a mooring or you could use an electric heater instead of or to augment this in the v-berth.
The starboard bulkhead works better since the plumbing goes through the bilge up inside the hanging locker and through to the heater. The only problem I've had is sometimes the sensor gets dirty and it won't let it light. Its easy to clean (a quick wipe or use of an abrasive) but the sensor is a bit hard to reach.
Of course a diesel gives you much longer supply for extended use. As you say you could put one or more 20lb tanks in the cockpit or on deck and use those in the winter instead of the 6 lb tanks in the locker.
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby midnightsailor » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:48 pm

Thanks guys for your input as I am really struggling with this one. I was down on the boat a few hours ago and was going over every possiblity for the umpteenth time. and left the boat thinking propane may be the only solution. I have the deep fixed keel so no centerboard trunk so that location is out. The propane unit will fit nicely on either bulkhead but I do see what you mean about using the starboard bulkhead in having the locker there for running the plumbing up. I am concerned that the max 9700btu output of the propane unit might not be adequate but it sounds like for you it does ok down to freezing temps. I do have her at a slip with electric so can supplement, as I am currently using just electric now. I am just hoping to have something I can use when I am not at a slip with electric or am out on the hook. I may just go that way and put an auxilliary bottle in the cockpit just for the winter months or perhaps I can fashion a stern mount bracket should I decide to get away from the slip for a while . The diesel unit really is alot more problem to install, especially with finding place for the day tank if that is needed, though I am not sure if that is neceesary. I think it can be fed from main deisel tank directly with use of fuel pump thjough installations I have seen have all used the main tank to feed a day tank which gravity fed the deisel unit. Propane sure is a lot simpler. I really would like to find a nice clean way to permantly install more propane capacity anyway since my hot water heater is also propane fired. I guess maybe this will be an all propane boat! but two 6lb aint gonna do it all! Thanks , really appreciate your suggestions and thoughts on this. Will let you know what I decide, or what I come up[ with., Rick
1982 Freedom 33 Cat Ketch, Hull # 53, Standard Booms, deep keel ,tall rig
An armed man is a citizen, An unarmed man is a subject. George Washington
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby rvivian » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:12 pm

Have you thought about an Espar diesel fired circulating air or hydronic heating system with the furnace located in the lazarette? Runs right off the diesel tank and vents out the stern.

More money but works so much better for a livaboard.
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby JimD » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:49 pm

I have had an Espar on my F38 since 1995. Vents in the main cabin and head. It keeps them comfortable down to the high 20s. The aft cabin and v-berth are cooler. A larger unit (I think mine is a ?D5?) would also heat the v-berth. The boat is in the Chesapeake and extends our cruising a month on either end of the season. Turning it on is easy just flip a switch.

Jim Demerest
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby midnightsailor » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:05 pm

Thanks to all of you who gave me feedback on this question of heating my F-33. I have pretty much decided to go with the buklhead mounted Dickenson propane heater. My reasons? 1. Ease of installation, I can mount it on starboard salon bulkhead without having to make any major changes to the boat. I did come up with a way to mount the diskenson diesel fireplace on port bulkhead but this would require shortening settee with a cutout at the foot of it to get enough height for the flue. I also already have a propane line running to that area for the water heater, although, from what I have learned I might be safer to run a seperate line from the propane tank instaed of tapping into this line. Any thoughts on this? 2. I like the low profile of the chimney cap...it will not interfere with any lines or rigging and can be fitted with a nice line guard. 3. I also like the idea that the double flue brings in its own outside combustion air and vents out any moisture. 4. I like the ambiance of the fireplace effect. 5. I decided that a seperate propane tank can be located above ther cockpit grate which vents directly overboard so I can put a 10 lb or more tank therte for the winter when I would be using the heater. I can also use the tanks in the locker if I feel the need to remove the auxillliary tank when I am sailinbg although I don't see that it woould be in the way . I already have 3 differnt size tanks(a 10lb aluminum, a 20 lb aluminum and a 40lb steel) so for liveabpoard use over the winter at my slip I could use the large 40lb tank and have plenty of propane. 6. The price is right, the espar type is a bit too much money and also I loose the ambiance effect that I like so that is one of the reasons I choose not to go that way. 7. Since I keep my boat at a slip I can supplement with electric if needed. From what I have heard I feel that the larger model unit will be sufficient for most of the time by itself.
I will keep you posted on my installation and results . Now to find the best price on the unit..I think Defender has a boat show special going on now.
Rick
1982 Freedom 33 Cat Ketch, Hull # 53, Standard Booms, deep keel ,tall rig
An armed man is a citizen, An unarmed man is a subject. George Washington
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby GeoffSchultz » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:44 am

I think that the biggest issue that you'll have is condensation on the interior hull surfaces. Have you installed any insulation?

-- Geoff
BlueJacket
1997 Freedom 40/40
http://www.GeoffSchultz.org
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby 1980raven » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:08 am

I am sure that ABYC standard A-1 MARINE LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG) SYSTEMS requires a separate line to each appliance from the propane locker (tees not allowed outside the locker).
Freedom 28 CK Hull# 14, centerboard, wrap around sails with WB booms
Narragansett Bay, RI
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Re: HEATING MY FREEDOM33

Postby midnightsailor » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:41 am

Geoff,
The issue of humidity being introduced has been alleviated with Dickensons double wall flue. All combustion air is brought in from outside aslong the outer wall of the flue and exhaust (including water vapor) exits from the inner part of the flue. From what other users of this unit tell me they have NO problems with humidity and that it produces a very clean dry heat. The condensation question was somthing that I considered and feeel that it is not a problem with this unit. I have never had any problems with condensation in the past and find that this is the dryest boat I have ever owned and I have had quite a few boats over the years.
I also agree that I will have to run a seperate propane line from the locker or propane tank to the fireplace as pointed out by 1980Raven, he is correct in that "NO T's " allowed. This eliminates one connection point inside the boat. Still ,I wonder how much more safe is it to have an additional 25 feet or more of possibly vulnerable gas line inside the boat? A T with a short 2 foot liner to the heater somehow seems like it may be just as safe...it's a trade-off i guess , but the would be in a very visable, and accessable location along with a propane detector sender located there. But, the ABYC standards don't see it that way I guess so I will follow them. Any thoughts on this?
1982 Freedom 33 Cat Ketch, Hull # 53, Standard Booms, deep keel ,tall rig
An armed man is a citizen, An unarmed man is a subject. George Washington
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