Weeping Keel Bolts

[bbarnewolt]

Anyone have experience with weeping keel bolts? We nudged some rocks over the weekend, and in the process of investigating I found the aft-most keel bolt to be weeping a bit on my 1988 36/38. In retrospect, the fluid coming from the area is slightly rust tinged and the trail of fluid into the bilge is slightly rust stained, so I am thinking the weeping has probably been there for a while- though I never noticed it- and may not be related to this weekend's misadventure. No other water ingress that I can see, but the water definitely comes from beneath the nut on the aft keel bolt.

Has anyone dropped their keel, rebed the keel joint and reinstalled? Anyone know how the keel bolts are attached to the keel itself (threaded studs into nuts with backing plate or "J" studs)? I know that the hull is this region is solid fiberglass and the water intrusion is drip-like, but I want to repair properly. Given the bolts are 21 years old, seems to me the right thing to do would be to drop the keel, inspect the bolts and rebed when I haul for the season. Thoughts on cost?

What would you do in my situation?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Brien

[ceresma]

I had the keel reset on a tartan 31. It cost just under $7K. I thought that was a lot but as I was 3 states away I really couldn't shop around to get a better price.

Mark

[AlanK]

When I was looking to buy boats I saw something similar. I talked to a knowledgable yard guy that had repaired keels etc. He said he really doubted it would be from the outside especially on a freedom. He said sometimes there are some holes in the bottom of the bilge that are there to allow air to escape when the the keel was attached. Sometimes water coming into the bilge gets in these and depending on sealant etc. it may seep. Alternatively the sealant around the keel boat (if there is any) on the inside doesn't go all the wayt up to the top of the bolt where it exits the bilge. Water than just sits there. He said he would just filled the vent holes, remove the keel nuts and washers and fill any voids with sealant and retorque them. Then keep the bilge dry (or just build dams around the bolts with a little sealant temporarily) and just watch to see if there is any seepage

[bbarnewolt]

I'm posting an update to my original question so that this information is available on the site.

After a great conversation with Paul Dennis at Warren River Boatworks, I've learned the following. Paul will be doing some work on my boat this winter. The conversation pertains to a 1988 F36/38. Other models/vintages may be different.

Freedom keel bolts are J bolts inserted into the molten lead when the keel was cast. They are not bolts held in the keel by backing plates and nuts so they are not really amenable to removal for inspection. The keel itself is attached to the keel stub with epoxy at the factory (not 5200) and then bolted. The seam between the keel stub and the keel itself then had a six inch, 3 layer band of fiberglass wrapped around the seam and was faired. This fiberglass band is cosmetic. It does nothing to prevent water intrusion nor does it add any structural integrity to the keel. It can be ground off if one needs to look at the seam, with no adverse consequence. Given the epoxy/bolt attachment of the keel, removal of the keel is rarely ever necessary and can result in significant damage. One cuts the lead with a carbide tipped circular saw rather than the fiberglass stub, then hopes they can separate the two.

Regarding the keel bolts and the nuts within the bilge, they rarely if ever need tightening. The very aft keel bolt is in a fiberglass chop and is the most vulnerable of the bolts because of the nature of fiberglass chop (and also the forces exerted on the keel during a grounding while moving forward). Apparently there can be some delamination in this region that allows bilge water to wick up into the area of the aft keel bolt. Paul has come up with a process by which this area can be strengthened using fiberglass and stainless. Of course if delamination exists, it needs to be taken care of. Some of the cross bands of reenforcing fiberglass that extend down into the bilge from under the sole have also been known to delaminate- and can be detected using hammer taps and listening for the tell tale sound of delamination. I noticed this on my boat when I bought her and already had these areas reenforced.

Lastly, I guess I could just simply have a leak from a crack in the keel stub, but given the strength of these boats, I doubt it. I'll know in a few weeks and post my outcome here.

Hope this information is useful for others.

Brien

[gamayun]

Brien, I see you're still on the forum so I hope you don't mind me resurrecting such an ancient post but it relates to what I am dealing with right now. I have a Freedom 38 that has the ever so slightest leak (maybe a tsp per hr) that I am fairly certain is coming from one of the keel bolts, but there also seems to be some even slighter weeping around the grounded bolt that's higher up inside the bilge.The yard recently rebedded the keel-to-hull joint when it was hauled out, but I don't know whether they did anything to the bolts. I'm curious what was the solution on your boat? Has anyone else dealt with this?

Thanks!

[bbarnewolt]

I now realize I never posted my final outcome!

Paul Dennis was correct in his assessment of my situation. He ground down some material at the stub/keel joint on the outside of the boat and for the most part it was entirely sound. You could easily see the solid epoxy joint between the keel and the stub- except in one area. At the most forward section of the joint, you could see daylight through the joint to the other side for a distance of about 18-24 inches aft of the most forward portion of the stub/keel joint. The gap between the keel and the stub was only about 2-3 mm, but you could see daylight from one side of the keel to the other nonetheless. Paul thought that the boat was probably just built this way. He tried several methods to try to close the gap mechanically, including putting nearly the full weight of the vessel on the forward section of the keel, but the gap would not close, nor would any part of the keel move. This suggested to him that the joint was stable, and we ended up filling the 2-3mm gap with very thin epoxy once he built some temporary dams around the gap to keep the epoxy in place while it cured. This process successfully filled that gap, and the joint remained in pristine condition through the following season.

The weeping aft keel bolt was dealt with by grinding away the chop material around the keel bolt and rebuilding that area with fiberglass and epoxy. Paul's explanation was that the keel bolt weeping of the aft bolt was due to the wicking of moisture from the keel sump through the chop fiberglass used in the manufacturing of that part of the boat. He felt it was likely not due to a leak to the outside world. My sump always has about an inch of water from rain entering through the mast. We tested his theory when the boat was out of the water by filling the bilge and leaving it full for nearly a month. No leaks to the outside of the boat. Paul has done this repair several times, and on some boats has done even more extensive reinforcements.

Lastly, the washers under the keel bolt nuts were replaced with thicker G-10 washers. There was some thought that perhaps the nuts were running out of threads as they bottomed out and not applying enough force. This probably was not the case, but it was inexpensive to do and allowed a good look at the studs that were visible in the bilge. Of course it says nothing about the stud's appearance below the bilge. I still wonder about that sometimes.

My keel was never removed. The epoxy joint seemed intact and Paul told me that the only way to get it off would be to cut it off with a diamond blade. We didn't think we needed to do that, and so far I've seen no leaking from my keel bolts since.

I probably have some pictures around if you want to see what I did. If your aft keel bolt is weeping, you may have a similar condition as mine that is due to the chop wicking water from your bilge (if there is any water in the bilge). Paul said it was common. If you have other bolts that are leaking, and your keel was removed and rebedded, I'd be suspicious of the rebedding process that was performed by the yard.

Hope that helps.

Brien

[gamayun]

This is really helpful. If you can share the photos, that would be great, but please don't go to any trouble. I will talk to the yard, too.