New Sails for F-25?

bearb4tree
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: San Franciso Bay

New Sails for F-25?

Post by bearb4tree »

Hi,

I have a Freedom 25, hull #216.

The main sail appears to be original.

Has anyone replaced a main sail? Are there lofts more familiar with the F-25 than others?

Can any competent loft replace the sail?

Thanks for the advice.

Cheers,

Matt

jgeorgas
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:27 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by jgeorgas »

Try Steve Haarstick at shaarstick@haarsticksailmakers.com. They are very familiar with Freedom sails.

unfetteredalexandria
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:57 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by unfetteredalexandria »

We got a new main over the winter from Steve Haarstick for our round-mast F25, hull #206. So far, I am very happy with it. On the very first sail, in 12-15 knots, without fiddling with the sail trim much at all, we could tack through 110 deg, according to the GPS. With the old main, which I believe was the original from 1984, the best we saw in the same wind was about 130 deg. I also like Haarstick's batten pocket design much better than the previous sail's. On the old one, the ends of the battens had to be pulled into their pockets with little loops of cord. I was never able to get them in all the way, so they protruded a bit from the leech, which resulted in their fouling on the lazy jacks during hoists. Haarstick has a velcro strap to retain the battens that you shove down into the pocket with "batten pusher" that he supplies with the sail. It was very easy to get them in all the way with this, and we haven't had one catch on the lazy jacks yet. The sail bag Haarstick provided was also top notch.

When shopping, I also talked with North. As of then, they employed the guy who used to run Haarstick's loft in Annapolis before Haarstick closed it, and they indicated he would consult on any sail I bought from them. Not sure if he still works there or not. North offered a better price, but in the end I went with Haarstick.

Good luck, and I'd like to hear how things turn out for you.
1984 round-mast Freedom 25
Western Shore of the Chesapeake

bearb4tree
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: San Franciso Bay

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by bearb4tree »

Thanks for your reply!

I got quotes from three lofts including Haarstick, and two lofts here in Alameda (where Pineapple sails has a high reputation). They are all about $3K. Not so bad, I am beginning to really like the boat.

I went sailing today, and it is very hard for me to get the original mainsail up the mast. I am not the strongest, but I can bench my weight. I would like my wife to be able to do it (she can carry our 60 pound twins). Something is wrong.

I cleaned what I could reach with acetone, and then used a teflon spray (very similar to Sailcote). One of my luff blocks is broken. I found one of the Harken blocks at the base of the main halyard was cruchy ( bits of bearing visable). I replaced it with a Harken 2135 57mm Carbo (was the closest the rigging shop had in stock (Svendsen's in Alameda). This helped a little. It ratchets which is cool, but not essential.

The track is loose in the mast (new rivets? Monel? Aluminum?)

I'm betting the block at the top of the mast is toast.

What would the group recommend before the a new sail? Replace the block, replace the track? Can anyone raise the sail from the cockpit?

Thanks for the advice.

Cheers,

Matt
Hull #216
SF Bay

unfetteredalexandria
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:57 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by unfetteredalexandria »

Our mainsail track and blocks are in good shape (and yes, I have been up the mast recently so I can attest to the condition of the block up top). Nevertheless, what I have found, and what I have read throughout this and the previous Freedom fora, is that Freedom mains can be a chore to raise. On our boat, by far the biggest contributor to this seems to be the reefing tackle. Other than sailing without the reefing tackle, what has worked best for us is the following. Prior to raising the main past any of the reef points, we pull the reefing lines out through the back end of the boom, so that we end up with several feet hanging down into the cockpit. This relieves any tension on the leech. We still have to use the winch to get the main up all the way, but it's way easier than fighting all the reefing tackle. I'm pretty sure even my wife could do (but she hasn't volunteered to try!).
1984 round-mast Freedom 25
Western Shore of the Chesapeake

jgeorgas
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:27 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by jgeorgas »

I have a round mast F25-1983 which I mostly single hand. I have no problem raising the main from the cockpit. I use Sailcote on the slides and blocks a couple of times during th season. Had a couple of loose rivets on the track which the marina replaced, don't know what the material was.

Tricia
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:59 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by Tricia »

My track has aluminum rivets. SS doesn't get along well with carbon fiber. Loose rivets can get in the way of sail slides.

I have Bainbridge Allslip sail slides at the ends of my batten pockets. They're UHMW and ride on both the inside and outside of the track, so there isn't the same friction against the inner surface of the track is there is with nylon slides.

I also use a trick I found on the Catalina forum a few years ago. Instead of simply feeding the reefing lines through the cringles on the leech, I shackled a small block on one side of the cringle to a stainless ring on the other. The reef line goes through the block instead of the cringle and that cuts down significantly on friction.

With those two modifications, I can raise the sail most of the way from the mast by hand, then go back to the cockpit to winch up the top two or three feet.

Tricia
F25 "Muse"
Vancouver, BC

jjspearson
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by jjspearson »

I emailed and then spoke with Haarstick sails, and was impressed with their knowledge of Freedom Sails. I also saw a picture of a Chop Top Main that Hansen Sails (hansensails.com) made for an F25 with rotating mast. I emailed them and asked about the same sail design for a fixed round mast F25 which is what we have. Bill Hansen emailed me back as follows:

"The price is $3200 fob Oakland, CA (plus CA sales tax for in-state delivery.)

This includes composite Dacron / Dimension Polyant PX05 and C590 technical laminates, Full-length carbon tube/rod battens, leechside set screw adjustable batten tensioners, reef points, cunningham, shelf foot, sail numbers, Freedom Logo and tube bag. Luffside batten cars/slides are not included but will be provided at cost should you wish to replace your existing hardware with updated equipment.

Please feel free to contact me on my cell if you need further information or have questions.
Thanks and best regards,
- Bill hansen (541) 490-3143"

Go to hansen.com, click on FORUM, click on GENERAL DISCUSSIONS, and then NEWS AND VIEWS. Down about three posts is information on the Chop Top F25 Sail.

I have only been sailing the F25 Since early this year. My wife and I race the boat PHRF. We have the original Haarstick main that came with the boat (1984 Hull 207), and a small stasail that tacks to the top of the spinnaker gun mount. We did purchase a new/used kevlar blade made for a Melges 24 and tack that to the pad eye on the deck. Only have used it twice, but it seems to help substantially going to weather in light wind. We had to add a track to the cabin top in order to sheet this sail inboard at the proper angle. We are considering a new main and were interested in comments about tacking angle improvement with a new Haarstick main versus the old original one. What was the price of the new main from Haarstick?

We have used the old original spinnaker a few times, but have had problems retrieving the sail (was not able to get the design someone posted about a redesigned retrieval sock). Pulling out the pole from the cockpit and hoisiting the sail works OK. Got a quote of about $1500 from Haarstick for a new spinnaker but am looking at used ones.

From racing in some strong wind conditions, my round mast has rotated slightly. How do you stop the round mast from moving/rotating. I have the wedges in place and thought they were tight, but must not have been or that isn't enough to keep the mast from turning. There was/is an angle strap that I thought was just for grounding when I stepped the mast. It is not installed because I had the mast in place and the crane was gone, before I realized that it had to be bolted through mast before it was lowered all the way down.

Jim and Sarah Pearson
F25 WENONAH
Round Mast, Hull 207
6hp Evinrude Outboard

unfetteredalexandria
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:57 pm

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by unfetteredalexandria »

Thanks for the chop top pictures. I had sketched something just like this and showed it to a local sailmaker, as well as discussed it with North and Haarstick. No one was really interested in working with me to turn my sketch into reality. Steve did suggest that Freedom's original sail area of 260 sq ft was too large in heavier winds. Comparing batten lengths of the original to the new one, it seems he has put more area up high and less in the lower half, and I do think the new sail has shown better balance in 15+ knot range. Also, like one of the others who has replied, I have rigged blocks to the reef cringles in the leech, which does help some. If you don't have them, they are worth adding for sure.

Since you asked about price, here is the quote I received from Steve Haarstick last fall:

FREEDOM 25 ROUND MAST
P = 29.33 E = 13.40
Estimated area, (including the roach) = 244 sqft

CROSS CUT DACRON MAINSAIL:
Cloth: 6.5 oz Dacron
NET 20% FALL DISCOUNTED PRICE = $ 2,194

Options included in above price:
5 Transverse Battens
2 Reefs
Low friction Slides on Luff
Cunningham
Wedge or Loose Foot
Numbers & Insignia
Leech Line
Round Bag

LARGE STAYSAIL:
LF = 26.5' LP = 13.5'
AREA = 179 sqft
CLOTH: 4.0 oz Dacron
NET 20% FALL DISCOUNTED PRICE = $ 945

Staysail Price includes:
1 Telltale window
Leech & foot lines
Luff wire with adjustable tack
Luff telltales
Round bag.

Gun Mount Triradial Spinnaker:
SL = 29.0 SMG = 17.1
AREA = 545 sqft
Cloth: 3/4 oz Nylon
NET 20% FALL DISCOUNTED PRICE = $ 1,170

2008 FREEDOM FALL DISCOUNT PROGRAM:

For any Freedom sails ordered before 10/31/2008:
15% DISCOUNT FOR ONE SAIL, 20% FOR TWO OR MORE SAILS
1984 round-mast Freedom 25
Western Shore of the Chesapeake

bearb4tree
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: San Franciso Bay

Re: New Sails for F-25?

Post by bearb4tree »

Wow,

Really like the chop sail design. I also e-mailed Hansen sails. I will let you know how I progress.

The task at hand is to make the main easier to raise, I bet I have a jammed rivet.

I spoke to a friend with a lot of riveting experience, aerospace and medical. Here is the upshot on rivets:

Graphite and titanium are close together on the galvanic series, and so should not corrode. Titanium rivets are made by Cherry, but are likely very expensive and hard to find. Their website has data sheets saying the rivets can be used with composite structures.

Monel is farther from graphite, and aluminum farther still.

Aluminum rivets probably pose some corrosion risk, but I wonder if the mast is grounded, then the corrosion ends up in the zincs, and all is well (zinc is below aluminum on the series).

Thanks for the suggestion on sail slugs that ride on both sides of the track seems like a good one. Ditto for adding a block to the reef line.

Post Reply